Twin cam v SOHC

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Twin cam v SOHC

Post by charliemk1 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:40 am

I think fitting a big heavy twin cam in an Uno is a backward step considering how much power can be got out of the SOHC lump

Your thoughts please lads?

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Chas Uno on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:16 pm

charliemk1 wrote:I think fitting a big heavy twin cam in an Uno is a backward step considering how much power can be got out of the SOHC lump

Your thoughts please lads?

Depends what you're building the car for. Drag strip action, then a blown Twink is the way ahead (torque steer not withstanding). For the track, the less weight up front the better, plus too much power is no good as it's likely to spin wheels and lose traction. Hence the older SOHC lump may be better.

The real way ahead is to do what Lewey did, and fit a modern (light) T-Jet FIRE engine. That way you get a modern twin cam, smaller and lighter, and capable of much more power (and reliable power also).

I'd also add that going much above 200bhp in a Uno is a little pointless as it gets hard to put the power down without spinning the wheels all over the place. LSD's can be added, though ultimately there's only so much power a small, light front wheel drive car can realistically put down on the tarmac.

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by st1allstar on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:34 pm

Sohc all day long, no need for any other engine, twin cam or the fire engine

As been proven on the psc forum over 300bhp has been achieved, you can build a 1.3 1.4 1.6 or even a 1.9,

take a look at this, dr evils punto original 1.4 block stroked to a 1.6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJFMvLY9KaE&feature=c4-overview&list=UUx27TGn4L3ZyOcbqA92xhbw
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Mintys-turbo-mk1 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:50 pm

My uno weighs 800kgs with the lancia engine in so i would say yes it is worth it.
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by gtirx2 on Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:46 am

Tough call this,at the beginning when I first got back into my unos I only ever envisioned one engine in an uno and that was the mk1 1300 lump.

Since seeing all these engine swap threads though it has swayed me abit,maybe if I was building a weapon or more race orientated uno I would consider it but I have my gtir for that.

I will never say never though as I do still have that other shell,hhmm

For the road I don't think I would want anything more than the sohc,i would not even want to go larger cc unless I was forced to due to bore wear and needing larger forged piston etc.

I am more than happy with only 170bhp,infact I have no urge for more power either Shocked 

A lsd would be more of a benefit than more power to me I feel,but being a daily driver I don't think its really worth it as I don't hoon about quite like I used to Laughing 
Plus even though it slows you down the wheel spinning can be fun trying to control it and get the power down mid corner or off the line.

I also think part of the fun for me is due to it being only a 1300cc,it never really disappoints no matter what you are racing at its only a 1.3.
Also due to it being only a 1300 it disheartens 90% of what ever it races.

My old girl has recentally been in the company of a 400bhp evo 8,300bhp sti v4 and 220bhp sierra cosworth,and on the road I would be more than happy to say the uno can hang with them.

Sure its not as fast as them but its not expected to be, but on the road it hangs on enough to more than dishearten them I suspect,if a 1.3 8v was keeping with my gtir I would be gutted Laughing 

That's a little to what its about to me with the uno especially as a road car,i like the underated and david and goliath,and it dont get any better than with the stock 1.3 lump.

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by jas_racing on Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:24 am

gtirx2 wrote: 8,300bhp sti
'kin hell I bet that's rapid!
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Sparkyjay1211 on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:42 am

My Mk2 UNO is sitting at 200bhp at the mo and I have no problem getting the power down it does spin up but you learn how to put the power down

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Dunc on Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:09 pm

Good thread this.

Personally for me, i want my Uno to rip my arms off when you gun it and rips the tyres to bits lol Very Happy 

in all serious though, i have set my mates mk1 clio 16v turbo as a bench mark. His car is absolutly rapid, pulls 12.3 1/4 times and runs 279bhp. Another one of my mates has a 306bhp clio williams. Both put the power down amazingly and put it down very controlled. Ok, you can easily make it do a huge rolling burnout if you wish, but off the mark its awesome!

They are both cars that actually impress me everytime i get in them. The pull when they come on boost is unreal. Seriously forces you into the seat.

So thats the reasoning behind the twincam lump for me. Plus, it's a little different. Especially as i'm now going 2.0 16v turbo route (16v version of the twincam engine).

I still absolutly love the mk1 1300cc and mk2 1400cc engine though, don't get me wrong, and i still think a 170+bhp uno is a very quick car on the road!

Handling wise, the 2.0 8v wasn't too bad, ok, you knew it was a little heavier up front, but it still went round corners very well. I do run coilovers, good tyres and uprated ARB i might add. All the nova/corsa boys with their c20LET and c20xe lumps seem to corner ok? Again, mk1 clios with their 1.8/2.0 F7R/F7P engines corner well (even though they were originally designed for these lumps)? Metro's with the rover 1.8 lumps seem to be ok too?

Overall, i think the handling is going to be slightly worse, but nothing too much, and nothing i would worry about. The power/torque gains for me though, easily out weigh a little bit of handling loss.

I agree, a 1.6 mk2 uno turbo engine, forged, etc, the works, will be awesome and still keeps the original uno turbo engine looks etc and original UT idea. But, you are right at the high end of the performance of the engine etc and right at the limits.

Where as for me, the 2.0 16vt lump is 200bhp out the box, exhaust, filter, FMIC, T34 hybrid turbo, prated fuel pump, bigger injectors along with a remap should easily see me past 280bhp at a sensible boost level (1.2 bar ish). The engine won't be strained at all, and won't be running mega boost to achive it.

So, my final word is this.....

....for me, i love the twincam conversion because they are differnet, and the only way to get mental power, but i still would love a uno turbo engine, even with 150bhp, as they are, in my book, still awesome!

It's a bit like the Mk1 Vs Mk2 car discussion and which people like best. For me, an Uno turbo is and Uno turbo. Doesn't matter which is is, Mk1 or Mk2, doesn't matter which engine it has, 1300, 1400 turbo or even a twincam, i LOVE them all and think they're all mint!

Very Happy

Dunc (Uno Turbo lover of any sort!)
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Sparkyjay1211 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:24 am

Well said Dunc I've just brought the 1.6 hf engine spoke to Avanti they said if you forged it up it will handle 250bhp without a strain

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by st1allstar on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:27 am

Standard engine can take more than 250 no need to use forged pistons and Rods, IMO twin cam is a backwards step
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Sparkyjay1211 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:43 am

st1allstar wrote:Standard engine can take more than 250 no need to use forged pistons and Rods, IMO twin cam is a backwards step
What engine do you think can handle 250bhp standard

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by st1allstar on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:25 am

The sohc engine

why not chuck a 20v turbo engine in? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ONE-OFF-FIAT-PUNTO-GT-2-0-20V-TURBO-PROVEN-320BHP-FC-PERFORMANCE-TUNED-/121097863334?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item1c31fec0a6&nma=true&si=nSb5z28Yyt1%252FdLtAl4djREcZ0rA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by charliemk1 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:12 am

Just read a post on the X19 forum from a guy who had 450bhp from his single cam turbo engine. Half this power would be more than enough in an Uno I think?
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Sparkyjay1211 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:01 am

My tuning place where I live had a mk1 UNO turbo at 200bhp with everything standard didn't take long till it blew up I would like to see a UNO turbo at 250 bhp with standard internals

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by charliemk1 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:28 am

I have never heard of anyone breaking or bending a MK1 crank or conrod.. Educate me please?
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by st1allstar on Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:44 pm

running them lean with lots of boost breaks them

1400 engine with gt2871r turbo, 304 bhp



this was supermans punto gt, standard engine with gt2554r turbo and seb4 chip, made 225bhp



Last edited by st1allstar on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Sparkyjay1211 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:02 pm

Forgot to mention my mk2 UNO turbo 220 bhp detonated on standard pistons

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Chas Uno on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:28 pm

Any turbo engine can be made to produce much more power by upping the boost, with many owners making wild claims as to how much power their engines are producing. The SOHC Lampredi Uno Turbo engine is a good, but very old design (the original N/A engine was designed in the late 1960's). Engine design, and especially tolerances and engine management, has come a long way since the Uno Turbo engine of 1985. As such, modern engines can RELIABLY produce more and sustained power.

Many 'big power' owners have had mods done to their old turbo engines, proven by a few minutes on a dyno. You could stick a nitrous system on an old engine too and also produce big power increases. Trying to keep these engines at these high power levels is another matter entirely, such as on a race track. To see these modified engines used hard over prolonged periods I believe would show up their limits. Furthermore, big power might be shown on a car strapped to a dyno, but how practical would it be on the tarmac if the car were unable to put the power down without breaking traction every time boost is engaged?

It's worth bearing in mind that many 'rally homologolation' cars (i.e. Delta Integrale, Audi Quattro, Sierra Cosworth 4x4) were producing around the 200bhp mark and needed a 4x4 system and LSD's to get the power down efficiently. Even the 2 wheel drive Sierra Cosworth needed an LSD (and rear wheel drive) to make practical use of its power. Therefore, a small, light FWD car like the Uno modified to around 200bhp, with 2 wheel drive and no LSD is simply not going to be able to put down its power effectively if used hard. In which case, what is the use of all that power if it can't actually be used?

It's worth remembering also the saying 'Torque wins races and puts people in their places'. Power (bhp) might 'sell' a vehicle and impress lads down the pub, but it is torque that makes a car a weapon on a track. Rather than aiming for the highest bhp output, people should concentrate more on raising torque and making the torque curve as flat and as smooth as possible. It doesn't make for as impressive pub talk, but it sure would make a better road/ track car.
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by st1allstar on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:34 pm

chas show me a fire engine which has made big power,

I've just shown examples of the sohc engine making big power, even as standard, all you have done is copied and pasted,

so your saying beyond 200bhp its unusable in a uno? you have no experience, your uno doesnt even make standard turbo power, my uno at 163bhp wasnt enough, it was no where near at its limits

your dismissing a  over 300bhp 1400 sohc engine as "yeah but it will prob just blow up under use"

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Chas Uno on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:39 pm

Mark,

You're missing my point.

Big power Fires. If you look back (quite a few years) on FF, you may recall a Portuguese member called 'Smokeme' who used to drag race classic Pandas. 1.0 litre Pandas modified with a turbo charger. He was regularly getting up to 150bhp out of those, and used them hard. He did break a few over the years admittedly, but he was using relatively standard 1.0 litre lumps that normally pushed out 45bhp. Lewey has a T-Jet engine in his mk2 Uno Turbo, and that is pushing out around 200bhp (if I recall correctly). He hasn't gone for much more as the car was built for track days and he needed that 'usable' (and reliable) power I was talking about. Colin (a member on TI) has a Grande Punto T-Jet modified to produce 220bhp, and that car is devastatingly quick. At present, T-Jet's may not be producing massive power (yet) but they are doing so reliably and being used out on tracks.

Yes, I do believe that much over 200bhp in a Uno is unusable on a track or in an environment where it is used hard for sustained periods of time. Dunc used to talk about '3rd gear wheel spins' in one of his modified Unos. That's my point. On a track when you're powering out of a fast corner, the last thing you want is for the car to spin the wheels in 3rd gear. Hence my pointing out that 'usable' power (and torque) is more important than ultimate bhp. If Uno owners want to go much above 200bhp and still use their cars hard on a track, then they should be looking at fitting an LSD IMO.

Yes, my Uno with a 1500 X19 lump 'only' makes 85bhp. That can still spin the wheels quite easily if not used with care in certain conditions. And don't forget that I've been involved with people like Jai for a number of years, and have been on a number of track days with his Uno Turbo. I've been out on the track and have experienced first hand what a 130bhp UT is like driven hard, and how it compares with many other vehicles of a similar ilk.

As for the 300bhp Punto engine, I'm not for one second dissing it. What I am asking though, is that most of these big power SOHC cars only ever show their power on a dyno. How many of them have actually gone out on a track and shown if that power equated to quicker lap times and a better driving car? How many of them show that they can maintain sustained use of that power without breaking? Again, this is my point. Let's see these cars produce lap times or even 1/4 mile runs so we can compare how they stand with lesser powered versions. Do these big power outputs equate to better lap times, or proportionally better 1/4 mile runs? This is what I believe would be a good indicator of the 'usable' power limits in a Uno.

I'll give you a couple of good examples of 'usable power' from two cars of a similar ilk to the Uno. One was a mk3 Fiesta running a 150bhp 2.0 n/a Zetec (and modified suspension/ brakes). I saw that car at Bedford Autodrome last October (the day that Tippex lunched her engine...), and it was one of the quickest cars on the track. The balance of power, weight and handling made the car a real giant killer. Another was a modified Citroen AX GT with a 1.6 Saxo VTS engine at Cadwell Park. This I believe was only putting out around 140bhp, but again it was embarrassing far, far more powerful (and more exotic) vehicles) due to its balance of power and handling. This is the key to making a quick car, balancing the power levels with the ability of the chassis.

Another good example is to show a car tested on Top Gear. I forget which car he was testing (it was an exotica), but Clarkson tried it with the traction control off. The car was all but undriveable, it had too much and uncontrolled power that only a professional race driver would have any hope of being able to use. With traction control on, the car was tamed enough to be able to use that power. Thus going by power to weight ratios, a 300bhp Punto/ Uno wouldn't be far off the same power to weight ratio of this exotica. And neither have traction control.

So whereas bhp dyno printouts look impressive on paper, how about seeing these big power Uno's/ Punto's lap times and how they hold up to sustained use on a track?  



st1allstar wrote:chas show me a fire engine which has made big power,

I've just shown examples of the sohc engine making big power, even as standard, all you have done is copied and pasted,

so your saying beyond 200bhp its unusable in a uno? you have no experience, your uno doesnt even make standard turbo power, my uno at 163bhp wasnt enough, it was no where near at its limits

your dismissing a  over 300bhp 1400 sohc engine as yeah but it will prob just blow up under use,
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Chas Uno on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:55 pm

st1allstar wrote:chas show me a fire engine which has made big power
Wink 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMrp_4HXDGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEtF_xX0g0o
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by st1allstar on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:02 am

i think your missing the point of this thread, its about the engine

i dont drive a stripped out track car on slicks, you wont get track times cause hardly anyone does track days,

the fire lump isnt exactly a straight forward conversion, nor is it IMO a upgrade to the sohc lump, prob the reason why only 1 person has done it, i think this thread could go on forever but as to charlies opening post i agree that changing the original sohc is a backwards step

grande puntos are never going to be that quick, there to fat and heavy, look at the standard 1/4 mile times for the abarth punto ss, mid 15's with 188bhp, a standard UT with 1 bar of boost would cream all over one
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by charliemk1 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:11 am

The only thing stopping our sohc lumps making crazy horses is our management, turbo, fueling etc... I have a well proven quick engine in my car, but I wouldn't waste fuel trying to catch this thing. Below is my wifes engine bay

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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by Mintys-turbo-mk1 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:31 am

very nice engine. Whats the tank that the red pipe go's on? charge cooler
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

Post by charliemk1 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:39 am

PWR Barrel. http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=67
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Re: Twin cam v SOHC

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