Suspension / corner weights etc

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Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:22 am

After several fun trackdays i've started looking at the cars setup, after the first one i poly-bushed the front suspension these, made a massive difference especially the anti-roll bar ones.

Also added stiffer front springs and spax shocks instead of the Avo's, this really helped body roll


Even though it handled fairly neutral and predictable i reckon there's a few bits that could be improved.

The car is still sitting a bit too high, so next plan is adjustable height suspension, (i want to be able to drop it down a few inches for track days then back up for street driving! also tweaking each corner can help the weight distribution)

I've rebuilt the spare Avo front shocks with the threaded tube(pics to follow) and now need to sort out the springs, so have worked out the corner weights and full car weight

So I got the Uno weighed today Very Happy at the local scrap metal dealer

905kg inc me (77.5kg) so 827.5kg inc half a tank of fuel (its pretty stripped out - no heater, poly windows, but does have cage, passenger seat etc)

Corner weights =
front right 300kg
front left 260kg
rear right 182kg
rear left 163kg

Weight distribution doesn't seem too bad, might benefit from moving the fuel tank further left.

Once i get the springs sorted i'll post some pics. (cant seem to at the mo for 7 days on this website!)

Its definitely fun seeing progress on the track from little changes Laughing
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:48 am

You are getting right stuck in with the suspension Cool

Mine handles ok for on the road but would be crap on track,i think i am pretty much on the bumpstops at the front but i dont wont to remove them as its going to lower the front even more.
Just right where it is atm, any more and it will proberly be good night intercooler Neutral .
Hard cornering is crap though as i basicly have no suspension Embarassed Laughing

Weight ditrubution dont look bad tbh,weighed mine once on the weigh bridge at work,i got 840kg stripped with just over quater of a tank i think,weigh bridge is abit suspect though tbh.

Might be worth looking into a rear anti roll bar or rear beam mods,been a long time since i have looked into it but i think people were using possibly a mk1 or mk2 golf anti roll bar and attaching it to the rear beam i think somehow with the link ends bolted through the floor,cant remember now.
The other one i have seen is a thick plate welded underneath and in the middle of the rear beam to box it in and stiffen it,think i read about the possibiltys of the rear beam cracking though if you are not carefull.

I know on a gtir an uprated rear anti roll bar helps with understeer,not sure on the effects on an uno but some clearly think its worth considering, especially on track.


What do you mean about posting pics?

The site wont let you upload for 7 days?i will have a look into it.

You can always try photobucket...

http://fiatunoturboowners.forumotion.co.uk/t11-forum-size-width-etc


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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:38 am


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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:03 pm

Cheers for that, yeah i heard about adding a rear anti-roll bar, the on turbo124.com here looks good. Although the back is pretty light, so i'll try the lower / stiffer springs first

also read somewhere about using a fiesta one i think!

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:08 pm

richvans wrote:
(cant use photobucket etc as getting this message!)
New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days. Please contact the forum administrator for more information.


Hhmm i will look into that, did have a look earlyer but could not find anything,stupid settings Rolling Eyes

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:15 pm

richvans wrote:
(cant use photobucket etc as getting this message!)
New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days. Please contact the forum administrator for more information.


Should be fixed now,i hope lol

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:07 pm

ok then ! heres a test a pic link from brandshatch trackday!

http://www.msvtphotography.com/?Action=VF&id=9843019202&pcp=141&ppwd=76182gkm

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:24 pm

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:24 am

Looks good,does look to be sitting a little high,hard to say really as if you go to low you will be running close to the bump stops on the back.
Would not know where to start with an uno height wise for the track tbh.

What sort of temps oil/water does it run on track and how many laps can you stay out for?

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:52 am

At first i'd come in every 20 mins for a little rest/check, but then it would take 1/2hour queing to get back on the track

So by the end of the day i'd be staying out for 45 mins at a go about 40 laps! The engine got hottest waiting in the que to get out! As if on tick over for more than 5 mins it burns a bit of oil unless you constantly gently rev it! which was a bit embarrassing lol Embarassed

The engine has a small oil leak (the dip stick seems to pop out occasionally aswell) and a bit of smoke on tickover but runs great, i have a spare engine ready to go in with bigger turbo etc, but don't see the point while the old one is still going, hence spending time on the suspension and other bits to keep the thing on the road.

It got grooved discs and hard brake pads which need warming up, but they seem fine on the track, (a bit dodgey on long motorway journeys, when you don't use the brakes for ages! affraid ) I've bought higher boiling point brake fluid that needs to be put in.

I also now have AA breakdown cover which covers you for non competition track days - mechanical failure, not crashes!

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:22 am

40laps is good going!

Yeah i know what you mean about warming up when idleing,mines the same,stays pretty chilled just normal driving,warms up though boosting hard for a while.

What boost are you running out there and are you still using the stock intercooler?

Dip stick popping out and burning oil is not a good sign,whats you breather setup like?

I cant comment on a uno again but on the sunny and an evo i have been in a good set of brake pads are carbotechs,xp8 or xp10 are great pads,good from cold aswell,i would not use anything else i dont think if i was using the brakes in anger,have a read on the mlr.

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by Louie on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:22 pm

Took some pics of Lewey’s setup at Oultern park some time ago. Seem to remember him saying it's Fiesta and deadly in the wet.


http://www.fiatforum.com/gallery/data/2991/GEDC0253.JPG
(if I insert image here it chops it down so you can't see the end of the bar).

Re the dipstick popping out, have you replaced the dipstick seal? You can get new rubber for about a quid IIR. Cut the old one off heat the new one on and slide it on.

But it’s crankcase pressure that causes the dipstick to pop out. Have you cleaned the breather system out? Usual suspect is the fire trap mesh in the breather hose as it catches oil and solidifies over time and restrict the gas flow. When I can’t vent it finds another way out – dipstick. Fix dipstick and then pressure will find the next easiest rout – heard of it causing oil to pass the turbo seal even after fitting new turbo,
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:24 am

Cheers, sounds like he has a nice set up, is that the guy with the cable change gearbox? is he on here yet? i need to remind him for some pics of it!


I'll have to have a look at the breather pipe asap as i expect this is clogged up
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by Louie on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:57 am

Yes it's the same Uno with cable change setup from a Bravo Tjet IIR.
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:39 am

Louie wrote:Took some pics of Lewey’s setup at Oultern park some time ago. Seem to remember him saying it's Fiesta and deadly in the wet.


http://www.fiatforum.com/gallery/data/2991/GEDC0253.JPG
(if I insert image here it chops it down so you can't see the end of the bar).

Re the dipstick popping out, have you replaced the dipstick seal? You can get new rubber for about a quid IIR. Cut the old one off heat the new one on and slide it on.

But it’s crankcase pressure that causes the dipstick to pop out. Have you cleaned the breather system out? Usual suspect is the fire trap mesh in the breather hose as it catches oil and solidifies over time and restrict the gas flow. When I can’t vent it finds another way out – dipstick. Fix dipstick and then pressure will find the next easiest rout – heard of it causing oil to pass the turbo seal even after fitting new turbo,


Hhmm i am liking that idea,looks a very neat setup that,i wonder where the roll bar originanly came from/off?

Yeah i have seen some issues with the pics,i will have to have another look into it.

Was having issues with some photobucket pics like that and could not work it out,in the end i fattened up the forum instead to try and make up for it Laughing ,seems to have worked for most pics but for some reason some pics still seem to be much larger and get chopped on the right side.

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:52 am

The breather wasn't clogged but had some gunk in it, so i've added a nice shiny catch tank, as when looking into them it made sense not to vent hot air dense with oil back into the air intake!
Whether this will make much performance difference i'm not sure, but cleaner colder air is better for combustion, so all these little details must add up!

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by andy on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:05 am

You may find that raising and lowering will need more than just ride height adjustment.
If you havnt already make sure the geometry is all spot on.

I hope to do a bit of racing this year.Had a licence for 2 years now and just havent had the time.

I was at a Brands race last year and there was a chap there racing an uno
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:12 am

Sounds good are you racing an Uno?

I've been using this one for track days (only at Brands Hatch so far as its the nearest), just trying to tweak the suspension for more grip, even bought a tire pyrometer for to help tune the suspension!

Just fitted converted front avo shocks with adjustable height, it doesn't leave a lot of travel on the lowest setting, so will give it a test drive tomorrow. The idea is to be able to wind the suspension down and adjust/stiffen the damping for track days, and then be able to return it back to road settings.

Hope to do a similar thing on the back if it works.

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:57 am

Yeah as andy mentions any adjustment in height or camber will more than likely affect you tracking.

Going lower will add negetive camber which inturn will affect your tracking for sure i would suspect.

There is away to basicly set your tracking with measurments lines on the ground and string but i dont know how to do it but is possible.

I messed about with my gtir quite abit,mostly due to having 2 bent wisebones at the start lol.

Tracking is also one of the most important aswell imo if this is way out it can make the car handle all over the shop, as i found out at brands in the gtir,it liked the left hand bends but was not to happy on the rights lol and braking hard was not pleasent at all.


I can any go by what i have read on the gtir,but i would start with ride height and would proberly set the back 10mm or so higher than the front.

Then get one of them cheap camber gauges and aim for proberly 1 to 1.5 deg neg on the front if its not all ready that from the lowering.
This can be done by using camber bolts or what i would proberly do is elongate the top holes in the shocks to adjust it,a bit hillbilly but some prefer this to camber bolts.
The car has to be pefectly leval to set this in the air and can be abit hit or miss once on the ground, or can be done though the spokes of the wheel on the brake disc if there is no lip on the discs, or by using a flat bar across the face of the wheel to put the gauge on if you have the space,thats assuming you are just setting it with a cheap bubble gauge.

Then lastly tracking, i am not so sure what i would aim for to start with,proberly 0,but alot of things can affect the tracking once set.
From just the extra weight of getting in the car i think can tend to make the wheels toe out a tad.
And as you can expect under heavy braking or accelerating the toe is going to change ever so slightly so it can take a while to find where works best for you.

But no any change in the suspension and the tracking should really be checked,especially if you playing with the ride height and camber.

Then there is caster which is a whole nother load of bolloxs lol but can also be benifical i have read.
On the gtir's they drill another hole in the turret so that your normaly uprated camber adjustable top mounts can then be turned and used to adjust the caster instead of the camber.

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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by andy on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:50 pm

Those camber bolts can be brought from ebay,
Eibach.

You can do the alignment with a bit of string. it does get you out of trouble but is not ideal.
Do corner weights with you sat in the car and with fuel load where you intend it to be when you are on track.

I have a couple of ADR prototypes and another car that im putting together ,not an uno. I have no experiance with full bodied cars.In fact I am no expert, there are just so many variables in suspension and Aerodynamics I would have do alot of reading to get my head round it all.What works with one car wont on another.

Im sure I read on another fiat forum about uno set ups by someone that seemed to know.
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:14 am

Sounds like a serious set up Cool , i'm treating the uno like a race car lol! just a bit of fun really. Its a handful on the track, just proper fun keeping up with much more expensive cars !

The front is nicely lowered how i want it now, dropped it about an inch more than the spax set up before, took it for a test drive and seems ok, it can still go down another inch but there wont be much travel left, might have to use smaller bump stops

[/img]

Yeah camber bolts could be an idea, i really need to test out the lower suspension on the track first and take some tire temp readings to check the camber ! not done any of this before, but change one thing at a time i reckon! at brandshatch there does seem to be more right hand corners so not sure its ideal to test for tire temps as the outside of tire is going to be working harder!

Here's the home made coilovers using the adjustable AVO shocks wth a sleeve over the top



[img]javascript:void(0);
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by lewey on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:42 am

richvans wrote:Cheers, sounds like he has a nice set up, is that the guy with the cable change gearbox? is he on here yet? i need to remind him for some pics of it!


I'll have to have a look at the breather pipe asap as i expect this is clogged up
If you go over to my build thread on Fiat Forum, it has pics of the gear lever install. As it is a track car, there is little thought given to cosmetics.

http://www.fiatforum.com/uno/245531-1368cc-16v-fire-turbo-t-jet-uno-conversion-10.html#post2747260

Those pics were taken when I had just finished my first run; a few things have changed since then inside the car and engine bay. The lever and cables are from a MultiJet 1.3 Grande Punto as it happens as it came with the gearbox which I used also, but you could get something from any car that uses the C510 gearbox and retro fit it to a UT box. I cut down the lever housing until it was small enough to fit on the "exhaust tunnel" neatly, cut some 10mm rods and tapped them and put them on the floor and bolted the housing to it. The cable change mech transforms the gear changing experience!

I will be looking to do a neater job on another project Uno I am working on, so there is room for improvement.
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am

Hi cheers for that, cable set up looks spot on!

I've got another mk2 Uno Turbo engine and Top change gearbox going into a Fiat X19 very soon, so will need a similar cable set up, the pic really helps, I have something to go on now.
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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by gtirx2 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:54 pm

How does your car wear its tyres around brands?

I popped in there for a track evening on the way back from work Thursday and fuck me it was fun,best 4 wheeled fun I have had in years infact!

I admit my tyres were pretty worn before I started with the worse ones on the rear.
But i was surprised to see/feel my rears tyres going off/over heating first though,fronts showed very little wear but it completely hammed what was left of my rears lol

I take back what ever I have thought about the uno handling in the past, as in fact it was amazing fun on track and did a lot better than I thought it would  Cool 







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Re: Suspension / corner weights etc

Post by richvans on Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:11 pm

I never had too much wear, but the 13 x 175 tyres would squeal a lot on most corners on the limit and would almost loose the rear on druids!

Just fitted 13 x 205 on 8" rims with R888 tyres so should be interesting to fell the extra grip

I'm there on Wednesday eve if i can get this mk1 hybrid turbo fitted as my turbo has started to smoke bad! pop down if ya local Very Happy 
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